No, there is nothing wrong with your monitor.  I have switched the background colour scheme of this blog from light blue to black as a sign of respect for those who died during the Massacre on 4 June 1989.  Lest we forget.

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24 Responses to 毋忘六四

  1. Ned Kelly says:

    I remember. On that night, at around 6 PM London time – which was arround 2 AM in Beijing – I was in a hotel in London, and I went to bed early because I was going to fly to America the next morning, and while I laid in bed I turned on the TV and saw a live, real-time TV broadcast of the massacre.

    At that time, I had never been to China and I had no personal connections with China, but at that time I got down on my knees and began to pray the Catholic prayer, “Hail Mary”, while the massacre was being broadcast on my hotel’s TV in London.

    I got no sleep that night. I remained on my knees throughout that night, praying:

    “Hail Mary, full of grace,
    The Lord is with Thee.
    Blessed art thou among women
    And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS,
    Now and at the hour of our death.”

    I prayed that prayer on my knees, all night, in a hotel in London, on the night of June 3/June 4 1989.

  2. Ned Kelly says:

    PS, and I was NOT “fair and balanced” when I prayed on that night.

  3. justrecently says:

    Strange. I have no clear memory of June 4 1989, nor of November 9 (when the Berlin Wall came down), although I’m sure I watched television on both days.
    But pictures are powerful. These too. They come with a messge which was hardly intened by the CCP. “Zheng-bu-zheng-que?”

  4. MatthewTan says:

    Ned Kelly,

    “PS, and I was NOT “fair and balanced” when I prayed on that night.”

    Could you elaborate on this?

    Do you think God has answered your prayers?

    I am a Catholic, ethnic Chinese, Singapore-born-and-bred.

    I have asked some questions on Hu Jia’s case.

  5. Ned Kelly says:

    Matthew Tan asked,

    “Ned Kelly,

    “PS, and I was NOT “fair and balanced” when I prayed on that night.”

    Could you elaborate on this?”

    Sure. That was a piss-take (slang for an “indirect insult”) of Western journalists who confuse their moral cowardice with being “fair and balanced”. I was thinking of one in particular.

    “Do you think God has answered your prayers?”

    Of course, always. But we seldom see exactly how He does.

  6. Ned Kelly says:

    PS, to Matthew Tan,

    Okay, now that I’ve read your comment on the other thread about Hu Jia, and thought more about your question “Do you think God has answered your prayers”, now I realise you’re a Communist Party apologist. Although you don’t write like a Mainlander, so I’m not sure you actually belong to the CCP or working directly for them, but you’re definitely one of their propagandists/apologists.

    And you’re not a Catholic. I don’t rule out the possibility that one of your Chinese parents or grandparents might have been a Catholic, but you are not one.

    How can I tell? Because no Catholic would ever ask the question “Do you think God has answered your prayers?” A very basic, fundamental Catholic belief is that God ALWAYS answers prayers, somehow. For a Catholic to ask that question of another Catholic is analogous to a Muslim asking another Muslim, “Do you think Muhammed was a true prophet?”

    No Catholic would ever ask the question you asked.

    On the other hand, the question you asked is very typical of how the Chinese Communist Party think, and its very typical of the Party’s fathomless ignorance about all religions.

    I’ll respond to your questions about Hu Jia on the other thread https://underthejacaranda.wordpress.com/2008/07/26/enlightening-jones-china-discourse/#comment-1904 in the near future.

  7. Ned Kelly says:

    I must go on about this, because I’m still laughing at Matthew Tan’s foolish, ignorant attempt to pretend he’s a “Catholic”.

    Matthew, don’t you think you should actually study the basics of Catholicism FROM CATHOLIC SOURCES – instead of from idiotic Communist Party textbooks – before you try to pretend to be a “Catholic” on an internet post?

    The Chinese Communist Party’s flaming ignorance of all religions – and perhaps especially its ignorance about Catholicism – never ceases to astound me.

    Look, Matthew, this ought to be obvious, but alas it is not obvious to the CCP: The Communist Party is NOT an authority on Catholicism. They can’t teach you anything about it. Yes I know you think the CCP is the fount of all truth, but when it comes to teaching you about the religions of others, the CCP knows less than nothing.

    So let me explain to you, Matthew, in more detail, why your question about God answering prayers was so obviously NON-Catholic and why it seems ridiculous to Catholics:

    Contrary to what the ignorant Chinese Communist teachers of “religion” (in your political education classes) have told you, Catholics (and most other Christians) do NOT believe God answers prayers in any direct, material way. Mind you, we DO believe that SOMETIMEs miracles happen through prayer – such as healing of medical diseases – but that happens very rarely, and that’s why it’s called a “miracle” when it does happen. But in any case, the point of prayer is NOT to do “magic” so that God will “make things happen” in a material way.

    The Communist Party teaches that prayer is a superstitious attempt to do magic. But the Communist Party is totally mistaken and ignorant about the purpose of prayer, at least as far as Catholic prayer goes.

    For Catholics, the purpose of prayer is spiritual, NOT material. It’s not an attempt to make things happen magically; it’s not an attempt to ask God to “change things” in the material world. It is, rather, a communication to God, of one’s love and compassion, for the sake of spiritual changes in oneself and in one’s fellow humans.

    But the Chinese Communists don’t understand that, because THEY are the ones who really believe in superstition and magic!

    Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world”. Thus, Catholic prayer is not of this world either. The organisation that REALLY believes in unscientific ways of making things happen through a kind of “magic” in this world, is the Chinese Communist Party, whose unscientific superstition is that “economic development” will transform and improve the nature of Man.

  8. MatthewTan says:

    Ned Kelly,

    I am a Catholic apologist on bbs.Chinadaily, using the handle matthew5_3. Google and read up if you wish, and judge me whether I am or not who I claim.

    I am also double-face, but no hypocrite. With one face I criticize CCP on its religious policies, defend Christianity and Catholicism; and with the other face I support some of the CCP’s policies.

    And you should not be surprised of this if you know a little about Singapore — where I am born-and-bred as I told you — and Singapore’s leaders’ political philosophies, which I have assimilated into my system, just like you have assimilated yours into your system.

    China is learning, and has been learning from many countries, including Singapore. Our ex-Deputy Prime Minister was the Consultant overseeing the establishment of the SEZ Shenzhen. And we also help building up towns in Suzhou, Tianjin and soon Nanjing. And in 1992, Deng Xiaoping told his officials, “Learn from Singapore, and excel over it.”

    I mention this not to boast about Singapore. But to tell you Singapore and China shared many fundamental principles and a little Confucian ideology. And I will and do defend Singapore when Westerners attack us like they attack China. So, there will likely be a “reflex action” when I see the same principles of governance of China being attacked, like the same way Singapore has frequently been attacked.

    Now, for Hu Jia’s case, I dare say with confidence he will be found guilty in our court system. But I need to emphasize I am not a lawyer.

    Okay. Regarding me as Catholic apologist. Google:

    matthew5_3 infant deaths site:bbs.chinadaily.com.cn

    matthew5_3 zionist site:bbs.chinadaily.com.cn

    matthew5_3 Heaven site:bbs.chinadaily.com.cn

    matthew5_3 Catholic Church site:bbs.chinadaily.com.cn

  9. Ned Kelly says:

    Matthew, you make me sick. You’re such a disgusting and IGNORANT liar, that you make me sick. In fact, you would make MAO sick, because at least MAO had SOME basic integrity and honesty.

    Reviewing the links you’ve posted as evidence of your being a “Catholic apologist”, I found THESE comments that YOU made, seriatim:

    1. “The reason DaLiar is damned is because he deserved to be damned.

    DaLiar is seeking to establish a Teibetan Nation for Teibetan People Only.

    Look at the photo below. No twisting of words is necessary, because a picture is worth than a thousand words.

    Who is scared of the OLD MAN?

    China is not scared of him. He is out to destabilize Teibet. To let him have a free hand will put the life of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of Teebetans at risk. Simple as that. China wants to PROTECT Teibet and Teibetans.”


    2. “Author: matthew5_3 Time: 2009-3-1 01:51 AM

    Green DRagon

    You should study more deeply into Tibetan Buddhism. Historically, it is full of violence. Monasteries fought against monasteries, sects against sects. One sect long thought to have been decimated and extinct was recently discovered in inland China. Guess who tried to destroy that sect? The Dalai Lama sect. Countless examples. And war has been waged in the name of the Dalai Lama between one Mongol tribe and another, with Tibetans supporting one side. They fought because they disagreed whether that particular Dalai Lama was genuine of fake.

    Ever wonder why the Tibetan population was only about 1 million in 1951? During the Tang dynasty, the Tibetans were so strong that they rivaled the Chinese and occupied the capital Chang-an, and the Chinese Emperor had to give away 2 princess to make peace by marriage. But over the centuries, the population declined to 1 million in Tibet. (Of course, diseases played a part. But Chinese suffered from the same diseases also.)”


    3. “Author: matthew5_3 Time: 2009-5-4 06:27 AM Subject: Chinese people generally believe in Heaven-God.


    Americans hate for China have nothing to do with they being Christians, I assure you.

    Christians hate false-god-worshipers more than they hate “atheists”. To worship an idol-god is against the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments do not deal with “atheists” and have no words for them.

    If worshiping idol-god is great sin, worshiping a living person as god is even GREATER SIN.

    Anyway, tell the Americans that Chinese people generally believe in Heaven-God. Descendants of Fujian call Him TianGong (Granddaddy of Heaven). In Mandarin, a popular term is LaoTianYe. (Old Granddaddy of Heaven). Maybe Granddaddy is Jesus’ Father. The Americans will love you if they know Granddaddy is present in every Chinese heart.

    Americans hate Chinese because of China’s political system. Period. And Wake up! They fear China’s potential strength.”


    4. “matthew5_3…
    Naive Chinese souls and loyalty.
    No. Vatican has not taken any Chinese souls and loyalty AWAY FROM CHINA. Chinese souls know how to love China and love The Church (Not Vatican).”


    You, Sir, “Matthew Tan”, are a liar.

  10. Ned Kelly says:

    And just to make my above comment clear: What Matthew wrote in his comments on those threads, had NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church, but everything to do with Chinese Nationalism.

    Matthew Tan, you are not a Catholic. You are a liar.

  11. MatthewTan says:

    Ned Kelly,

    You accused me of being a fake Catholic.

    ***How can I tell? Because no Catholic would ever ask the question “Do you think God has answered your prayers?” A very basic, fundamental Catholic belief is that God ALWAYS answers prayers, somehow.***

    Maybe this is what you have been taught to answer. I was a Protestant for 13 years before I became Catholic. So, I have Protestantism and Catholicism mixed-up in me. I do not know my response is Catholic or Protestant. My response is: “God’s answer may be Yes, or No, or Wait.”

    ***The Chinese Communist Party’s flaming ignorance of all religions – and perhaps especially its ignorance about Catholicism – never ceases to astound me.***

    Yes, used to be. But probably no longer so. And they are making efforts trying to understand us.

    On the other hand, Vatican used to be very ignorant about Chinese thinking and feelings also. Politics, imperialism, colonialism, racism and anti-communism have all been part of the China-Church story.

    ***The Communist Party is NOT an authority on Catholicism. ***

    I do not know why you have such thoughts. Maybe you do not understand them either.

    ***The Communist Party teaches that prayer is a superstitious attempt to do magic.***

    Again, I don’t know how you come to this conclusion. They do make a distinction between religion and superstition. Maybe you have talked to CCP members who don’t even read the Party document on religion.

    ***For Catholics, the purpose of prayer is spiritual, NOT material.***

    CCP does not know about the finer points of differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, and differences among various Protestant denominations/sects.

    ***unscientific superstition is that “economic development” will transform and improve the nature of Man.***

    Who says this?

    Maybe when people become rich, they will not be so tempted to protest in the streets, go on riots, and call for the overthrow of CCP; they will be better educated, well-informed and “cultured” about other peoples and cultures; and they will pursue finer things in life, such as music. And democracy and human rights are music to many Chinese.

    IF, IF, this is improvement or “culturation” of man’s nature, then the theory is “scientific”.

    Interestingly, the guy I was debating with at chinadaily accused me of being a fake “Chinese”.

    I clearly told him IF…”IF I am a PRC national…”


    Shame on you, A FAKE Chinese mattew5_3.

    #169 [long]
    Reply to NorthWest, Pope and Church, true Catholicism

    Worship someone? We worship God and God only.

    I have very high regard for many of your leaders, like Hu Jin Tou, Zhou Eng Lai, Deng Xiao Ping, Hu Yao Bang, etc. If I am a PRC national, I will like to co-operate with the Government and the Party in socialist construction, and to be a faithful citizen like anybody else. But I also want to worship my God and practice my faith — no matter what. And the Pope is the leader that teaches us our Catholic faith, i.e. he has the final say on matters of Catholic faith. The Communist leaders cannot be my spiritual teachers, because they do not believe in what I believe. I can obey and co-operate with the Communist leaders, as long as it does not violate my conscience and my faith.

    And I got this answer:
    Fyi, I’m used to be a baptized catholic! but when they pushed racist doctrine

    but most of them a racist/ supremacist that serve imperialist agenda

    When there’s non-white pope

    [The greatest difficulty between Vatican and CCP TODAY is reflected in this answer]

    It’s hard for us not to treat you as imperialist political establishement, even if you have tradition of worshipping god. You have to explain how you meddle Filipino affairs of birth control first and how it will affect China if we allow you to ask our citizens to defy our law.
    When you’re really pure religion that emphasize your work of promoting benevolence, tolerance and harmony, we may treat you as religion. If your main work is expanding influence, indreasing followers number and comment too much about government policy, you’re a political organization.

  12. MatthewTan says:

    Well, you happened to pick up the Dalai Lama bit. Yes, I am strongly opposed to his agenda because I know the history of Tibet very well. I contributed a big chunk to wikipedia article, Tibetan Sovereignty Debate, and my sources are Western.

    You do not know him that well. I tell you, if he has his way, even if China is disintegrated and Tibet become independent, it will be a DISASTER FOR TIBETANS. Tibetans will be fighting Tibetans. One side allied with one Chinese faction, another side allied with another.

    For that reason, I strongly oppose him. He has an independence agenda.

    The Dalai Lama and his “clique” distorted the history upside down. I do not want to spend time on this topic. I contributed a large chunk to wikipedia: Tibetan Sovereignty Debate.

    Go here and read #115 and all the links from there. If I am not a Catholic, I will not be spending so much time writing answering the accusation that priests and nuns in Catholic orphanages (infant homes) killed tens of thousands of infants.

    Replies to Infants Killing All Here

  13. MatthewTan says:

    Alright, to make it easier for you, the debate starts from here.

    Accusation: Catholic priests/nuns killed tens-of-thousands of infants in Catholic orphanage homes in China


    #49 Reply to ShanHuang #41

    #56 Reply to ShanHuang #52, 53, 54,55
    (1) I strongly condemned Christian Zionism.
    (Just to compare it with my condemnation of Dalai Lama).

    (2)And I declare my identity,

    (3)I question my opponent if he has anti-US or anti-Chrisian agenda

    Am I still a “Chinese Nationalist”?

    I have clearly and unambiguously condemned Christian Zionism…

    Fake Chinese?

    Sure enough, I am not from PRC. I have never pretended that I am from PRC. So I certainly am not “fake” PRC Chinese.

    You know that I am Chinese by race, from Singapore. If a Chinese-by-race from Singapore can be “fake Chinese”, I suppose you can also be a “fake Chinese”. What is your agenda? To stir up anti-US and anti-Christian sentiments in PRC chinese people? What is your motive?

  14. C.A. Yeung says:

    Whoa! What’s happening here. A mudslinging party? We haven’t had that for a while.

    Matthew, I presume you are not a regular reader of our blog. So a welcome from me. Because you are not a regular here, I don’t blame you for having some confusions over who is who. I am Catherine, the administrator of this blog. I am an Australian with Chinese heritage. Ned is an Australian of Irish background. Unlike you and me, he didn’t convert to Catholicism. He was born into it. And he grows up in a Catholic family where the faith is strictly practised. So he knows what he is talking about. Ivan is our American friend. He’ll join in every now and then as a guest blogger. But unfortunately Ivan is computer illiterate. He can only use the computer for email and nothing else. So you’ll find that most of our blogposts attributed to Ivan are posted under Ned’s name. Ivan is a closet Catholic, even though I tend to classify him as agnostic.

    By the way, I’m the one who is literate in Chinese. So in fact many of your questions, I presume, are directed to me. Ned and Ivan will not have the language skills to understand some parts of your comments. The readers of this blog is predominantly from North America, Europe and Australia. We also get a considerable amount of traffic from Hong Kong and Taiwan. But this blog is blocked in the PRC. Singaporeans are not our target audience. In fact very few traffic comes that way. So if you think that we are CIA agents trying to infiltrate Singapore with anti-China political views, then you are barking up the wrong tree. Remember, I’m the administrator of this blog and I have the statistics to backup my claim.

    Now you know all about us. So let’s follow the Chinese rule of reciprocity. Let me ask you a few questions:

    1. Why are you lying about your identity? My record indicates that you’re using a proxy. Some of your IP addresses have been set to Singapore, some of them are from the University of South Carolina. (The Chemistry Department, to be precise.) I wonder how you can travel from Singapore to Carolina within such a short time. So please explain.

    2. I put it to you that you’re using our blog to try to incite hatred comments on Singaporeans and the Singapore Government. What do you say about that?

    Matthew, I will not address any of your comments until I get a satisfactory answer from you with regard to the above questions. I don’t have a habit of carrying on a debate with a troll. So I just want to establish that you are not one. As you can see, I’m trying to be fair and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    For other readers here, we usually do not care who you are, as long as you make a valid point, we’ll publish your comment and/or respond to you accordingly. I also don’t have a habit of publishing details of commenters’ IP address and location. This time, I am making an exception with Matthew Tan because he seems to be making unfounded allegations against my blog and my co-bloggers.

  15. Ned Kelly says:

    I’m turning Japanese:

  16. justrecently says:

    Wondering if the wumaodang provides its volunteers with sufficient technical training… Anyway, I’m curious about MatthewTan’s answer… If he should turn out to be a troll, you’ll have devoted at least two comments and one post to him, Ned. :))

  17. Ned Kelly says:

    At the rate of 5 mao per comment, that means I’ve given Matthew enough work to keep him well fed on stinky tofu for a whole day.

  18. justrecently says:

    Which is commendable, but won’t help much if Catherine has spoilt his business…

  19. MatthewTan says:

    C.A. Yeung;

    “mudslinging” – I don’t this.

    Okay, Catherine, I can see your Chinese surname. At least you seem to believe I am a Catholic.

    “many of your questions, I presume, are directed to me.” – not really. I didn’t pay much attention to how many people are around. Thanks for your intro anyway.

    “CIA agents trying to infiltrate Singapore with anti-China political views, then you are barking up the wrong tree. ” – No, it’s not in my thought. Many of our newspapermen are pretty anti-China. I am used to it.

    Answers to your questions:

    1. Why are you lying about your identity?

    – I did not lie. I do not use proxy. If your monitor says I posted from University of South Carolina, then there is something wrong with your monitoring software. I do not know where S. Carolina is. I post from Singapore, only Singapore.

    2. I put it to you that you’re using our blog to try to incite hatred comments on Singaporeans and the Singapore Government. What do you say about that? –

    That’s is silly. What for? It is pretty clear that I am Singaporean. Look at my postings on bbs.chinadaily – I have given some links above.

    “I am making an exception with Matthew Tan because he seems to be making unfounded allegations against my blog and my co-bloggers.”

    You are referring to Hu Jia? I am only asking questions.

    I am making the point that he will be guilty under Singapore’s law and court system.

    Just to let you ALL know, we have TWO PERSONS convicted just for distributing tracts from Chick Publications. They did nothing. Only distributing tracts. Convicted and jailed for 8 weeks YESTERDAY. Or maybe TODAY for you.


    Duo jailed eight weeks

    A CHRISTIAN couple were jailed eight weeks on Wednesday for distributing and possessing anti-Muslim and anti-Catholic publications, but this did not mark the end of Singapore’s first trial under the Sedition Act.

    SingTel technical officer Ong Kian Cheong, 50, and UBS associate director Dorothy Chan Hien Leng, 46, have appealed against the conviction and are out on $15,000 bail each.

    District Judge Roy Neighbour decided on a jail term, even though a fine was allowed for under the law, as the couple’s offences affected the very foundation of Singapore society, which is multi-religious and multiracial.

    The judge said the sentence in this case was necessary to deter others from committing similar offences.

    Decked out smartly in executive wear, husband and wife showed no emotion when their sentences were read out to them.

    They were convicted of four charges two weeks ago, which included three for mailing seditious or objectionable evangelical Christian tracts to three Muslim civil servants between March and December 2007.

    Another charge was for keeping about 440 copies of 11 seditious booklets in their Bukit Timah condominium.

    The Sedition Act is designed to punish those who stir up feelings of ill-will and hostility between different races or classes of the population of Singapore.

    The punishments the husband and wife of 24 years received, however, were at the lower end of what the prosecution had urged the court to impose.

    Under the law, the maximum jail term for distributing a seditious publication is three years’ jail for a first offender.

    Read the full report in Thursday’s edition of the Straits Times

  20. Ned Kelly says:


    First, we’ve deleted the comment you left on another unrelated post, because it’s needlessly repetitious of what you’ve written here and it’s irrelevant to the topic. Actually it was put into our “pending” section by our SPAM filter as suspected spam, but we’ve decided not to ban you as a spammer…yet.

    Second, Singapore is not a country of any special interest to us. That’s why we don’t blog about it. Similarly, the reason why we don’t blog about Nigeria or Argentina or New Zealand etc, is because we’re just not particularly interested in those countries.

    Therefore, we ask you please, in the future, to refrain from hijacking our blog’s comments sections into irrelevant discussions of Singapore.

  21. Pingback: Omnibus thread for all countries other than China, Australia and USA « Under the Jacaranda Tree

  22. MatthewTan says:

    Ned Kelly, Catherine

    I cannot remember what led me to this place.

    But I was attracted to your prominent Ad on Hu Jia, and looked into the case. And asked some pertinent questions – since to me, Hu Jia was more likely to be guilty as charged. I have been challenged to provide reasons for this. And I have given mine, based on Singapore’s legal experience.

    And because I saw the Hail Mary prayer, so I asked some questions here. The responses from you people prompted me to answer the way I have answered.

    Perhaps, I should not bother to talk so much. All I needed to do is to tell you all:

    1. I am a real Catholic. This is quite irrelevant. I border to answer because another Catholic said that I am fake Catholic. I won’t border to answer if you are not a Catholic.

    2. I am NOT paid for writing all these things, or anything on the internet. This is also irrelevant.

    3. I am really from Singapore. This is also irrelevant.

    What is relevant then? You have deleted them in the other thread.

    The relevant points are:
    (They apply to both Hu Jia’s case and Tiananmen Incident)

    1. Different countries face different threats to social peace, public order, political stability, etc.

    2. Therefore, the security forces, laws and court systems deal with cases differently, some countries tend to be more strict than others on certain suspected crimes/cases.

    3. China is a ONE PARTY STATE. There is no alternative ruling party. The security forces (including the Army), laws and courts will not allow the Party to collapse, since that would lead to the collapse of the entire nation, chaos and anarchy.

    This is a shortcoming of ONE PARTY STATE.

    4. In a country which practises multi-party democracy, you can say anything you like to bring down the ruling party. The country will not collapse since another party will take over at the next election.

    5. Singapore is brought in just to illustrate the point: a seemingly trivial court case, which in a Western country will likely to lead to acquittal of the accused, is judged as deserving of a 8-week jail sentence because of the fragility of the social-political situation of the country.

    I hope I have made my points clear.

  23. Ned Kelly says:


    I’m not going to ban you at this time, but frankly, I find you boring.

  24. justrecently says:

    to me, Hu Jia was more likely to be guilty as charged. I have been challenged to provide reasons for this. And I have given mine, based on Singapore’s legal experience.
    Where did you do that? Did I miss one of your comments?

Comments are closed.